Your question about throwing the chain left handed is amusing. If the chain is
"done up" or thrown left handed, it must be "let out" in a reverse manner. The chain, when "done up" must be let out in the reverse of how it was done up, or you will have a tangled mess.The interesting part of this question comes when a right handed person tries to "let out" a chain done up left handed. Bad things happen.
An experienced chainman can tell when the chain is different from when it was "done up" right handed,.The left handed technique was usually done as a prank or to confuse a new chainman who has gotten to be a "know it all"..Of course left handed people sometimes do things which are left handed.
Another question for the older group or to ponder. Do you remember or have you ever thrown or seen a "doubled thrown chain?" This is a chain done up in lengths (normally 5') and thrown twice (making the chain into a circle of reduced diameter. This is a more difficult thing to do and is not nornally done often.
Chains were done up in 5' lengths and "thrown" to make the chain easer to store. A chain stored in this manner provides a convenient way to lay the chain back on the ground for measuring at a later time. Of course the reel was also used to store the chain; but, that is another story.
Hope you enjoyed this step back in time.
Johnny
Replies
Hi David ,Are the one's we are looking at , are they not chains , I know they are calling them steel tapes and they are marked off in feet. the reels for them are exactly like a chain reel. So what are these tapes that they stopped making ? and what are we looking at?
Billy
The ones I want are (physically) steel tapes. They are demarcated in links, rods, and chains, not in feet or meters. The length is 2 chains = 8 rods = 200 links. They are not coiled into a reel; they are coiled, thrown, and tied into a circle. I'll track down the one working chain we have here (at Dartmouth) to make photos to share with you all.
The terms chain and link are a challenge here. They are units of measure. And, of course, old measuring devices were physically made up of stiff links connected together into a chain. Modern measuring devices were continuous, flexible steel tapes but demarcated in the old units. And even-more-modern devices were continuous, flexible steel tapes but demarcated in feet or meters.
The traditional event as practiced in the annual intercollegiate competition uses 200-link steel tapes demarcated in links. That's what I'm trying to find.
Hi David, Yes I have never used a chain on a reel .If it came with one , i took it off the reel . I was just comparing the devices . Yes i was looking for a modern band steel tape or chain. I was taught that the band steel tapes are called chains. I started surveying in 1970 and the band steel tapes are all i have ever used. At that time I was taught that it was also called a chain. I have only seen these in (feet) or( varas.) I have never seen the tapes that you speak of. Yes all my chains ,all my life I have coiled and thrown and tied with a leather throng. I know the word " chain " in surveying can be confusing because of the reference to the measurement of a chain, 66 ft and the stiff link chains the first chains also called a chain also the measurement of a link and this stiff link chains being made up of links of 100 to make up this 66 ft., can be confusing when talking and asking ,do you have or sell a chain at these distributors . Thank for making this more clear on what type of measurement you need, because like I said, you speak of a chain that i was aware of ,but have never seen . I was looking for a 100 ft chain for you. . Now i know what to help you look for. These band chains are 200 links that is = 132 ft., that is a long chain to roll up and throw, kudos to you David . I will kept looking.
Billy
Neat! By the way, everyone, I am looking to obtain (buy) a surveyor's chain - specifically, the 200-link steel-tape variety. I learned to 'chainthrow' over 30 years ago (see photo) and still compete in an annual competition. My best time (coil, tie, throw, tie) is around 45 seconds. Anyway, the college-level competitors at this event are running out of chains, as the old chains are lost or damaged, and I'd like to keep the event alive by helping dig up and refurbish chains to share with these schools. Any tips or pointers would be welcome!
Hi David , Always glad to see some one that is in to the old Arts of surveying .Surveyors have always took pride in there ability's of how they set a instrument up, how they rolled their plumb bob's up, to tying a plumb bob knot, rolling up a cloth tape, and yes rolling up chain and throwing it. Chaining Arts are fading away each day, and it needs someone like you. Hand signals are a thing of the past and who knows what is next. I always kept a chain with me and would never put it on a reel that was a insult. Surveying with a chain surveyors took pride on how good they could close their traverse using lb. pull tension handle gauge's ,chaining clamps and chaining thermometers and plumb bobs, all play a part and pride was took in how well you could use these tools. And there has always been a special pride about the chain. and not to lose a chaining pin. I am sure if you did a web search you would find some. A lot of the old one's have been retired plus stored away and maybe hard to find . The band type is the kind that i have use I have never rolled up a link chain like a Gunters 66 ft. or a Vara's link chain. I have seen them. I have seen and used 100 ft. to 500 ft. band ENG. ,Survey chains and 10,20 and 36 vara band chains. which or rare to find. In your pic I see a band survey chain that is a fast time to roll one up Most of mine were stolen , I only know where one is,but ck ebay you might get lucky You also need to talk to Johnny Ingram he is a member of this site and owns and runs a museum in east Texas .It also has a web site , I am sure you read my and his discussion on throwing a chain. Here is his museum link, and the historical society link. you know how to get touch with him on this site, but he stays busy, but his museum has a phone. they may help you get in contact with him.
Glad to talk to you , keep in touch
Billy
http://www.surveyorshistoricalsociety.com/
http://dev.museumofmeasurementandtime.org/
Dave,
Glad to hear some are trying to keep the past alive.
Billy is correct, you can find band chains for sale on ebay (mostly the 100-200 foot type)
I would suggest using either the babbit or etched band chains for your purpose. They are more common and reasonable in price..
Tanks for the contact, stay in touch..
[email protected]
Johnny
Hi johnny , Don't explode yet, He did not ask me what a half a vara was ,He wanted to know what do you do if the measurement fell in between the vara marks. so i had to explain how the measurements were at the ends of a vara chain and what they were. Because he had only seen tenths on a 100ft. Eng. chain. I just thought you could explain it better than me and would have fun doing it. Sorry for the confusion.
Also i once saw a deed in LA. with the term ARPENT i was told that it was french and it was a square area like a acre of 192+- . Have you ever heard of this. I can not remember the exact dist. but i know it was close to a 192 ft and for some reason i thought of it when i went to your museum site. ps. Please do not overload.
billy. thanks johnny for your time.
Billy,
Sorry I misunderstood the question.
You basically are correct, smaller units of the vara are defined in tenths of a vara. When measurements are made with a band chain your example works. Band chains with vara units were made, but uncommon. Most measuring devices which used the vara were of the 'link'chain' type. Construction of the 'Vara Chain' is similar to the 'Gunter Chain'..We have examples of each type in the museum.
When using the band chain another issue encountered is whether the chain was a 'cut' chain or an 'add' chain!! These chains are different and their use can be confusing until their application is understood.
You mention the 'ARPENT', it is a French unit and if I recall correctly, it may be used as both a unit of area and a unit of length. I provide this information from memory and it should be researched to confirm. It's length I do not recall, there are similar units in the Spanish System.
Perhaps I should add this type information to the museum website?
Again my brain is on over-load so I will stop.
Johnny
Thank You Johnny, I have never seen the vara link chain but know of it.The only one I have ever seen is with a Surveyors statute on Preston road,in the city of Frisco of an Army Surveyor of the Republic of Texas, name of William E. Cook . He was given the duty of surveying a trail to make a road from Austin to to the Red River. It was later name Preston road and also hwy. 289. Some of his rewards other than his pay was, He was given land for his enormous task. and Appreciation by The Republic of Texas.So the vara chains I have used and seen are of the band type. I have used a 10 vara, 20 vara and one 36 vara that was a 100 ft chain made by Gurley in 1891 stamp on the chain Texas Vara The 36 vara was marked 1 thru 35 with and before the first and last ,35 to 36 divide in to 5 equal parts being 0.20 varas. In between these marks would be another 0.10.I can not remember how the 10 was set up but i am pretty sure it was similar to the 20 vara. So here I go this vara chain was 20 vara long and each vara was divided into five equal parts. Each the varas were marked with a lead tag with its distance from one end stamped and number 1 thru 19. Each vara was divide into 5 equal parts.Thus the chain was divided into 100 equal parts, Each part being one fifth of a vara or one hundredth of 20 varas. This would mean it would be 0.20 of a vara The 36 vara was only divide at both ends of the chain, Similar to a 100 Eng. chain today.
Remove not the ancient landmarks ( history and knowledge) which thy father have set....
I do not understand and why today' s measuring company's would not make a new measuring tape or chain to help and aid today's Texas surveyors to locate the find these old markers with out having to convert these calls. Like you said , Johnny you did not knock a dent in it. I have heard a lot of Texas Surveyors complain about not having a ,or at lease a tape when looking for old corners. Its like looking for a iron rod with out a tape. Well its some were around here.Did you not tape the distance? No! When will you ever learn. keep looking!
ps. Enjoyed your web site.
Billy B.
The real trick is throwing a chain using one hand.
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