Dear All
This is the first time I have posted a discussion and would like some feed back regarding the situation we as Surveyors are finding ourselves in, specifically with the advancement of technology and GPS becoming the norm on most construction sites, I know that personally I have felt the effects of General Contractors invading our Profession by providing their own general laborers to perform Survey Stakeout with GPS from AutoCAD Models. It would appear that our services and expertise are to a certain degree being outsourced right out from under our noses. If a General Contractor has an employed PLS on staff overseeing the work being performed than that would be great, but from experience that is not often the case in hand. Cheaper is not always better for our Profession or the Client's.
Dominic L. Agresta PLS/RLS
Email: [email protected]
AF&AM
Views: 324
Replies
First off let me start by saying thank you for your input based on the experiences you have had and allow me to clarify a few things by saying that I have worked and surveyed in 4 different states, two of which I am registered in and that 9 times out of ten when I have gone back to recover control and grades established by contractors with GPS they are always off vertically or horizontally anywhere from .20 to .40 tenths. Mostly commonly the source of the problem is inexperienced contractors firing up a GPS device on a local network and running with the first set of recordings they get rather than pulling information from a tight knit control grid relative to the site they are working on. For example, I’m currently involved with two large subdivisions locally that are experiencing flooding during rain events because of improper swale grading caused by a contractor using GPS. Prior to this construction I offered my surveying services to stake the swale and was effectively told not to perform the work and that they could handle it. Well to make a long story short I was called back by the owner to As-Built the swales and found that most of the swales were on average a foot too high or low in some places, thereby impounding water all over the subdivision. So know our client is faced with around a $30,000 to $40,000 bill to redesign swales, excavate new ones, reset culverts, reset pipes in existing driveways, etc……I think you get my point that the inexperienced contractors have no business on site playing surveyor. I just want to say that my post is not to judge all individuals that use GPS but those that are not diligent in their work and rushing through to meet deadlines put on them by the higher ups in the company, and from most of the responses to date from people so far seem to have or had similar experiences in all parts of the world. My opinion is not founded on a declining economy but the opposite as we have been steadily employed through some tough times and have recently noticed a steady increase in contractors playing surveyor trying to cut corners because they themselves are financially challenged. Contractors are treading in grey areas where they are laying out infrastructure on or near property lines without the proper understanding of the legal ramifications of GPS models in their earth moving equipment; thereby initiating the remark of “mindlessly following lines on a screen”. What does the guy in the dozer or whatever else is being utilized have to lose when a error is uncovered when his fall back defense is "well the GPS unit said to go here and cut this". If you were to use that excuse when called in front of your Local Board for gross negligence, I can’t help but wonder how far that gets you out of trouble. I know you say that some people have been extensively trained to use their equipment and that is great, but I’m sure you have been given Cad files that needed fixing and problems resolved prior to staking in the field as most prudent surveyors have done but seems to me that most contractors just don't get the proper training on equipment, AutoCAD or Basic Surveying Skills that you mentioned is available to understand and foresee problems that may arise during construction and therein lies most of the problems. Truth be told I’m all for Contractors employing a PLS to perform the work and/or oversee field operations of subordinates to ensure that it is done correctly as in your case, but until there are rules, laws and regulations to ensure proper training, we as a community will continue to see problem after problem resulting from substandard surveying practices from inexperienced individuals. I don’t want to come off as impolite but as far as I know, particularly in my state there are no state boards that oversee, govern or reprimand "IT" persons when they make mistakes but we as Professional Surveyors do have to answer for our mistakes and risk losing our licensure. You can’t call an E.I.T. an Engineer, an Intern, Doctor, a Paralegal, a Lawyer, or a Contractor a Surveyor. I would like to finish up by saying that I did appreciate your time and view on my discussion and look forward to having further conversations with you in the future.
Dominic,
I hear what you are saying. I am a licensed surveyor working for a contractor. I was forced into this industry by survey firms that only paid $10/hr to their techs and a 'poor economy' (lack of hiring, etc.) I do have a problem with contractors that didn't hire a PLS, however, the liability of errors will only come back to haunt that company, and in plain sight for the world to see. And may cause such big financial problems that would close the doors of that company for making those poor choices. I have also seen guys running GPS systems and laying out highways BETTER than a qualified survey firm.
I do have an opposite opinion of you and the others on this group. YOU need to find better ways to be effective and to build trusting relationships with contractors. Contractors can't have a situation where $1000/hr crew is sitting and waiting because the $120/hr survey crew can't show up till the next day??? Creating more laws is ridiculous. You might as well say that you can't be your own IT guy, unless you have the proper certifications?? You are just speaking about building layout and grade layout; and a lot of labor/operator unions have better training classes than the two year tech schools that suffice in some states to become an RLS. It sounds like you're frustrated with declining business, and I understand that, but to say someone is 'mindlessly following lines on a screen' is obtuse. In the majority of situations, these operators have undergone extensive training on how to use that 'tool' in their everyday construction activities. And keep in mind, back in the day before this technology, they were only required to hit those grades every 100 feet, and it only got staked every 100 feet, and they had to wing it between. I suggest friend-ing these companies before they hire an RLS, and learn how to build the models, and perform their calibrations for them and you will be so busy that you will forget about that pile of lath in your shed. My intentions of this post are not to anger anyone, but to show a different point of view.
Dean B. Teska, RLS
GPS Manager, Estimator
I've dealt with this first hand before. There were a couple of guys who staked out a building pad on a site I was working on and they took their elevation off of an old highway monument. There was a six foot difference in elevation. I was offsite for a few day and came back and they had built this building pad according to these guys stakes, they couldn't figure out why there weren't any stairs leading up to the building on the plans. I thought this was hilarious. Of course they tried to blame it on me, but nope, as a surveyor I knew to never trust an elevation on a point you've never used before. I would have, and did, double check myself before ever beginning to set any stakes in the ground. This situation probably won't be fixed until enough money has been lost by companies using untrained people to do a surveyors job.
Thanks John for posting your story and I would greatly appreciate more surveyors telling me about their experiences they had because I would like to start documenting these occurrences and propose legislation to my state to have changes made to the law only allowing qualified Professional Land Surveyors responsible for construction stakeout. Contractors working on a particular site will always encounter working around, on or near the property lines whether its the outer boundary line or the interior subdivision lines when installing utilities. Contractors having a GPS model does not make them surveyors or qualify them to ascertain the correctness of any such line.
Hey Guys,
i see this fact as an opportunity for professional people, because a contractor, like everybody, can see easily the difference between a chumaker and a skilled guy. Just one example: to do stakeout even for a small building a person must read drawings, upload data, elevations, coordinates...etc. Things easily performed by a professional.
from my point of view, I believe the stakeout (layout) is being an unexplored field by the Surveyors and engineers, and outsiders are taking advantage.
We as surveyors have dedicated our time and resources to learning this art through education and most importantly the experience over time gained from other Professionals. Surveyors have a moral and ethical obligation to maintain a level of due diligence to ensure that the public’s safety is always our primary concern, therefore; allowing individuals the privilege to take part in our profession without the benefit of proper training and education under the direct supervision of a Professional Land Surveyor is not placing the good of the people first. Surveyors ultimately answer to the State or Governing authority if we our found to have performed in less than a professional manner running the risk of losing our licensure and livelihood. So who holds these surveying contractors liable when an error is found, the local surveying board, state or federal agencies? No, no one!! Contractors are just simply not subjected to the same level of professionalism that we as surveyors are expected to uphold on a daily basis, thus allowing contractors to reap the benefit of profit from our craft without risk. If we were to operate in any other so called Profession without the proper credentials than I'm sure we would be held accountable for practicing outside the realm of our expertise, so what makes surveying so different. Surveying is a Profession, an earned right only achieved by passing the National Exams for the Fundamentals, Principals & Practice of Surveying and State Exams. We have earned that right to call ourselves surveyors and not someone with a GPS device mindlessly following lines on a screen. We need to push for laws and regulations to safe guard not only the public but our profession before anyone with a piece of equipment steps on site with the intent of proclaiming themselves as surveyors.
Dominic,
This can surely be avoided by law (if there is any), it's the common question "Who says we can´t do this?" then when a PLS goes to the site and find a coordinate mess they realize why the can´t.
In Argentina, it happens all the time, I have found 120m of error because of a mistaken coordinate system once.
Our profession needs more legal regulations and it seems to be all over the world, if by law only a professional land surveyor can do it, problem solved.
One last thing I must add is the fact that Survey Earth in a Day Event was started in order to show the general public (and unlicensed contractors alike) the importance of professional land surveyors to society. The fact that the majority of the public does not know what a professional land surveyor does happens to be one of the primary reasons for holding such an event- to educate. Without land surveyors, no one in the world would be able to accurately understand the ownership of real property. Surveyors bring accuracy to the measurement of land that the general public (including contractors without a survey license) could never achieve. You simply can't find your property corners using Google Maps, for example. But still, if money is involved, people will try without understanding the legal consequences of being so off-base.
i urge all professional land surveyors to participate in this event on the 21st of June, so that we can show the world true precision which can only be the product of a trained land surveyors work. Every other measurement is an approximation. Wouldn't you agree?
In Australian in comes down to the contractual obligations of the head contractor. In the contracts I have seen the furthest from a surveyor that is able to complete works is a person that is supervised by a Surveyors and they take full responsibility for the works this person would complete. I am not sure how well this is policed as if (and I think this is what you are finding) the head contractor pays the labourer a few dollars an hour more and they give them the gear and save anywhere up to $300,000k then they will just sweep any mistakes under the rug as their savings can make up for any potential errors.
This does not always work as I have seen potentially millions at stake, at the same time if we as surveyors, technicians or graduates are able to save our clients millions we hope they will see the great value of having us on site and get us onboard for the next project. IMHO
Welcome and thank you for posting Dominic. I am actually the only person on the network who isn't a surveyor so I am not qualified to offer an opinion. However, i believe that there are thousands of surveyors out there who agree with you.. so let's wait to see what they say..