I am very curious why so many discussions on the "Social Media" Surveying sites seem to be almost obsessive/compulsive in establishing the distinctions mentioned above.
Aren't we becoming like the the US Senate and House of Representatives....we continue to disagree and the people who pay the bills (constituents or clients) are ignored.
It is why I continue to insist that apprenticing AND educating surveyors is the best way to go.
David C. Garcelon
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We are committed to allowing freedom of expression for all of our members, and that includes maintaining a safe space for people with opposing views to express themselves. We get posts from all over the country and even the globe, so needless to say, people come with different viewpoints on lad surveying practices and processes. We see this diversity and variety as a real strength-- dialogue and debate are an integral part of the educational process, as well as an important tool in exploring different sides of complex issues.
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I'm not here to say anyone of us is right or wrong even if my name is Mr. Wright!
OK, all joking a side we are our own worst enemy! What do I mean about that? Yes we do have an obligation to world we survey as professionals and yes the client/customer should always get a competent representative/surveyor.
Now the biggest problem is yes we have all of these great guidelines to make that clear and sometimes they are enforced well and other times they are ignored completely. If you ask anyone of you on here you will get the same answer, "I'm the greatest surveyor ever and no one does a better job than me!!!" the minute I hear that from anyone of you I want to puke. I can tell you after 36 years full time surveying and growing up in the business that no one is as good as they think they are. I like to think that I'm a little above average and that I can find my way around a boundary.
The reality of it is surveying is an applied art form as well as a science. We have to understand that almost probably all of use have never really or never will be a true expert on parts of surveying! Why? simple not many of us actually do it all and on a consistent basis. Yes, we might have done that once even many times in our careers. Does that make us an expert or the best not by a far shot, it does take consistent education and updating to even stay even fairly up to the ever changing demands of this trade.
That is why we have to be smart enough to embrace the past practices and employ the present practices along with an eye on the future practices. I can't be-leave how few people can even use a simple pocket tape, handle level and plumb bob anymore? Those are the basic essence of surveying, if you ask a chain-man today for his plumb bob he will look at you blank, over half the time because he doesn't even have one especially not on him.So if you don't understand even the essential points of surveying how you begin to be a competent professional. mind that is just one simple example of how far we are getting away from the principals of surveying. Here is the standard answer to your request. Why do I need to know that? The data collector give me that answer.
Now you go to the other end of the spectrum and you have the professor who knows everything about books, technology and laws of surveying. The only thing he lacks usually is common sense, NO IT HAS TO BE MY WAY EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG BUT ME!!! That scares the hell out of me, because even if you can prove him wrong a hundreds ways of WRIGHT ( little pun intended of course) he is adamant that he is right and everyone else is wrong. I usually don't even want to be around someone like that, THEY SCARE THE HELL OUT OF ME!!!
So all of this just to say I agree we as professionals should be doing our best to preserve our great profession and grow it through good education and experience for the future of our profession and our followers after us. I hope all that opens everyone's mind to see a better system of saving our profession instead of tearing it down to nothing by just trying to destroy every other surveyor they don't think is worthy of being, especially if they they don't have the same answer as you.
We do have to be responsible, knowledgeable and well educated about what we do.We also have an obligation to every client to give them a professional service. We do have to stop those that blatantly ignore the guidelines set forth and continue to do so even when show their irresponsible practices
That is legal aspect of our profession.
...Professional Land Surveyors are not advocates for their clients. My clients disagree with me all the time, some to the point of taking legal or government action against me. In fact it happens on a regular basis as I have had 7 complaints filed against me with the Texas Board of Professional Land Surveying. I have been engaged in countless legal actions. Yes, I am the Professional Land Surveyor and yes if you hire me, you are my client. A Professional Land Surveyor is not like a doctor or lawyer and should not be interested in a client's (or anyone else's) opinion about where a boundary is. I place the boundary where I believe the preponderance of evidence places it. That opinion may change as more evidence comes to light.
Just like any profession there good and there are bad and everything in between, Land Surveying is no different.
If bad actors were not called out as being bad we would still have doctors blood letting for a medical treatment for a cold.
I understand the point that David is trying to make and I agree that resorting to a sophistic debate when discussing professional matters is counter productive and only leads to oppression of good practice and good theory for our profession.
Deward,
I especially agree with your last two paragraphs, and I also agree with Scott's observation that Land Surveyors United "is dedicated to frictionless collaboration and intelligent discussion". It is why I started this discussion on Land Surveyors United.
Although I have surveyed for over 50 years, and communicated with others about the profession, I am just learning not only how great electronic communication is BUT also the dangers associated with it and how different it is from two people who have known each other for a period of time having a face to face conversation.
For example, if I was giving a lecture on how to be a professional surveyor I would be shown the door if I said "Over half of you behave unprofessionally and I am here to straighten you out". The reason that I would be shown the door is that most of the people in the audience were there because they wanted to become more professional and they knew I couldn't possibly know their behavior because they had never had any contact with me prior to that day!!!
The social media seems to allow us the freedom to make rash statements and not have to back them up..believe me..I am not innocent but I am ashamed of doing it. It is completely wrong to any of us to say we know lots of people that are unprofessional, incompetent, bad, or any other derogatory remark in a public forum. It is also wonderful to have a public forum in which we can debate the pro's and con's without getting personal.
There were 56 men who had very different points of view but were able to come together and ALL agree to sign the Declaration of Independence!!
I have called out others, and I have seen things done that I personally don't approve of, but it takes the wisdom of Solomon to call out a person AND have it have a positive affect in their life.
So lets continue the good fight...perfection is something worth striving towards...do you know anyone who has made it?
David
David,
What a very ironic discussion to post to one of the only places on Earth where the topic of your discussion, in individual posts, etc. is not tolerated.
Thank you for identifying a huge problem with some of "those kind of websites". As I am sure you already know, Land Surveyors United is dedicated to frictionless collaboration and intelligent discussion.
Even when a meeting of the minds is not in the works, we agree to disagree in a professional manner which promotes a healthy discussion of the topics at hand. Many times our discussions naturally lead to another discussion about something mentioned that is important enough to be recognized as its own topic.
It is important to note that Land Surveyors United is all about education and mentoring. This is the main reason for its existence.
SDW
That's not a joke, Mr. Joker. Your comment is exactly what the author, David C. Garcelon, is talking about NOT doing. Please check your profile inbox on LSU for more information.
Scott D. Warner, RLS
Senior Director / Editor
Land Surveyors United
Similarly, in all professions there are people who execute their services with pride and humility, the most important question that most forget to ask their client:" Have we met your expectations and satisfied your need?" If we ask this question of all our clients and respond accordingly we develop the service where everyone will follow us. All too often professionals display the arrogance of "i'm the professional, you are the client...of course you are satisfied you got what I provide all my clients..". This simple question gives the client the opportunity to express himself. Broadly speaking, Professionals think their degree and experience is all that is required....the one thing that is always overlooked is "Who is paying for the service?".
No two doctors always prescribe the same medicine!!
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