Land Surveyor Forum

Replies

• Land Surveyor

  J Keith Maxwell June 1, 2017 at 8:17pm

  I know this is an old post but I thought I'd weigh in since it is featured again. Mike brought up a good question, and I think it was well answered in that having the electronic file, whether points file or CAD file, is very advantageous. This is true in 2017 even more so than it was in 2014. Almost every surveying software allows import of a CAD file. (I don't know if any that don't but it is possible.)

  Button Pushers

  Concerning "button pushers" I believe that it is up to the licensed surveyors to keep from training up the new folks like that. This idea has been brought up with the advent of almost (again I never use absolute language - never) every new technology.

  Log Books

  It was done with the introduction of the new calculators. No need for a log book. (Yes I used a log book in the Army. They were the last to adopt the calculators) Log book, schmog book. (I just made that up.) No need for the DMD method.

  Short story, the Army required us to write down the log values, so I just used the calculator to get them instead of looking them up in the book. But I kept the calculator hidden in my pocket. Later I convinced my sergeant and lieutenant to let me use the HP calculator with the programs in it in the field. (They had been locked in a closet, only to be touched during inventory every year.) So, we used it on a training mission with evaluators and they were impressed with the 'speed of the computer" (that's what the Army called the guy who did the calculations by hand with the Log book) that they gave me an Army Commendation medal. Amazing! All I did was RTFM. (Read the manual.)

  Example (for you younger guys)

  To get the Sin (angle) x distance you took the Log (angle) x Log (distance) and added them together. Then take the Inverse Log (looked up that number in the Log Book) to get the change in Easting coordinate. Same procedure for the cos (angle) x distance. Now think of how long that would take to traverse from one point to the next.

  Again,same thing with the development of the total station, which included a data collector inside that saved the field book info on the memory card. No more notes needed. Just push the button "old man."

  The GPS Black Box

  And, then with GPS. ESPECIALLY with GPS. And, believe me, there are still a lot of button pushers out there with GPS. I'd personally call it trusting the "black box" (yellow, green whatever) without having any idea if the numbers coming out of it are even logical. (I tried to teach this logic method, aka common sense checking to my Auburn Intro to Surveying class. But, as a local radio guy says, common sense is now a super power.)

  And, up to this previous question about construction staking.

  DRONES

  I won't EVEN get started on DRONES. Not yet anyway. I am thinking about writing an article about that very soon. Short comment is (I guess you could call this getting started) that with the low price of entry, DRONE surveying is causing more people to mess up much faster than previously was possible, and in a much bigger way.  At least the GPS units cost over $30.000 each, and you needed two of them, and $8,000 in software to be able to go out and mess up something. Yes, I paid $68,000 in 1992, and went right out and started messing up stuff.

  So, a great question, which always should cause us to think, and this one did.

  Now, enjoy this video about Drone Surveying errors.
• Seeking Employment

  Tapan Chattopadhyay June 21, 2014 at 2:52am

  Mike, I totally agree with you. I have never used the cad or any software to calculate and stake out any element at site so far. Taken the help of software when overwhelmed by sheer numbers to be stakedout in a limited timeline/dateline. I recall one incident , once my PM wanted to get the core walls of the tower  under construction checked by a third party survey practice, I provided the plan of the plot and the four corners of the main structure the guy. But asked me to provide him with the exact coordinates of the four corners of the core walls with the argument that otherwise he would have to go back at his office to get the same from a cad file. I was appalled. Anyhow, I gave him the data as requested by my PM.FOR SAKE OFTHE SPEEDY DELIVERY OF THE REPORT.

  what was his findings? he came up with a coordinate of the core walls which is even out of the plot.

  Recently, one very senior person of a eminent PMC PRACTICE FROM Canada asked me in the course of a telephonic interview, which software I USE FOR CUT AND FILL Calculation, my reply was that I use my head to calculate. He did not like my answer and I lost out.

  I don't know, how the surveyors of present day learn their trade in the college?

  Tapan
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    Stephen Donaldson > Tapan Chattopadhyay June 29, 2014 at 11:44pm

    I can appreciate that a well formed foundation of how to manually calc data is important. I am only 25 and do this myself mostly where alternate points are requested onsite (modern data controller systems such as Trimble access can handle this pretty well also).

    However, my perspective is that of working smarter. Assuming proper data management and control techniques have been adopted, I see no reason in introducing more opportunity for error through manually calculating (reproducing) stakeout co-ordinates. When the intended co-ordinates have already been generated in the digital design. With the correct methodology the potential for error can be managed very easily. The more we can remove humans from the communication process to get pegs in the ground the better IMHO.
• 

  Timothy Day June 18, 2014 at 9:38pm

  I feel the answer to your question is yes. Like you I have performed layout on roads,bridges,rail yards and multi story buildings with just a set of plans a calculator and a t-16. My personal view is that the simple and proven methods are not being taught anymore and all the new guys know how to do is push the button.
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    Mike McCulley > Timothy Day June 20, 2014 at 8:57am

    Thanks Timothy, I think you and Scott are getting my point. Having electronic data/files, etc.. are great tools; if you know the limitations and how to use them. I mentor at least one student every summer and try to teach the "old school" methods along with the new technology. 
  • Land Surveyor

    Scott D. Warner, PLS > Timothy Day June 19, 2014 at 11:02pm

    Timothy Day,

    I think you nailed it.  " ...the simple and proven methods are not being taught anymore..."

    But, why and how is this happening?

    I believe it is attributed to the advancement of the single user surveying equipment which is now the norm.  The two-man survey crew has been the tool for mentoring well qualified future crew chiefs for decades.  Before that it was a three to five man crew.  Who can learn from being out there alone, fresh out of college, with only the knowledge of how to use the equipment, and a basic concept of the larger picture as it was professed in the classroom, without proper mentoring?  NOBODY! 

    Give a well mentored and experienced crew chief a robotic total station and a GNSS system and he will do just fine.  This is only going to last for one generation.  THIS IS ONLY GOING TO LAST FOR ONE GENERATION!

    The ONLY way out of this is to continue the traditional apprentice / mentor type relationship between experienced surveyor and the new guy. If we don't return to the the simple and proven methods of perpetuating our profession, we will end up in short supply of qualified field crews, or field surveyors.

    Is everyone on their own now?
• 

  Ivan June 7, 2014 at 5:44pm

  it is because digital drawings are easy to handle and upload in the modern and sophisticated data collectors and total stations, it is easy to check the drawings using coordinates, find mistakes, compare and check the archs Vs Estrucs by overlaping. It is evolving to paperless field by uploading PDF's into Ipads. Tech has changed the way to work. In summary it is easier to stake from digital drawings than paper. Another reason is because Surveyors are part of the project whose drawings you are producing.
  • Land Surveyor

    Scott D. Warner, PLS > Ivan June 9, 2014 at 8:17pm

    Yes, Ivan.

    I think you were reading my mind when you posted your comment.  I had originally included  "cross-checking of data" and "office to field technology" paragraphs in my post, but decided to wait on the thought.  Thank you for picking up where I left off and adding even more to the discussion.  And yes, I can still stake from a paper plan as a last resort.   

    Scott D. Warner, RLS
• Land Surveyor

  Scott D. Warner, PLS May 31, 2014 at 7:44pm

  Sharing project CAD files can be beneficial and also risky for the source entity and the end user.  If it is done the right way, (using an ftp site with email notices for updates and a huge disclaimer) the information sharing process can help keep everyone on the same page without constantly issuing paper plans for every update, but if done the wrong way (here, have this CAD file and do whatever you want with it) it can be a risky liability issue for everyone on the project.
• 

  Mike McCulley May 28, 2014 at 8:08am

  Jansen, I do understand the need to provide a point file or surface model, which I have no problem providing. But to ask for the project CAD files seems like too much. I'm not sure some understand that most project files are multiple drawings referenced together.