It has become a more common practice here in California for local associations to treat the geographic area of their association as a private area closed to open competation by complaining to the county surveyor and state boards anytime another surveyor set a stake without filing a corner record or record of survey.  Because of the recessiona these "policing" surveyors have plenty of time to go around looking for paint and lath, then they investigate to see if a corner record or record of survey is filed.

What is wrong with that you may ask, if you read the act it allows for points on line, here in California without triggering a RS or CR.  Often an owner needs the line for setback purposes.

If another party complains to the Board or County Surveyor, they automatically contact the surveyor who staked it, and if he wishes to avoid problems, then he will file an RS or CR.  This of course raises costs to the consumer, who did not want or need that.

The surveyor who complained argues that it is for the better of the consumer, but they just dont know it. However when asked if that surveyor who complains has set POL's on new tracts, and not filed CR they will admit this is true, but claim the Act exempts it.  This is not true the Act exempts points set for the eventual recording of a map, but new subdivisions have already been recorded, developers would not invest heavily in unrecoreded tracts, the want the vesting secure.

 

Do you thing the consumer benefits more from competive pricing for work acutally needed or from higher prices for work he does think he needs, but will be forced to pay for. For responses presume the consumer has been fully informed.

 

 

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This has to do with specifically staking points on line of a defined, vested, and recorded property line.
If the original vesting map gives few monuments, but they (in the opinion) of the licensed surveyor fit within reason, and the client needs a setback line for in this case a garage, according to some surveyors, this would trigger a CR or RS. When asked if they have set 20 & 80 POL's on a new subdivision or R/W fence lines on easements such as water canals, they admit they have, but need not file CR's or RS's because ? ? ?,
This leads me to believe that this particular surveyors association is more interested in protecting market share and pricing in their jurisdiction then in fact helping the common consumer.

They use their position to promote complaints against non-members (as far as I can tell, as I have asked them, but they don't want to talk about it)

To avoid future problems the only practical thing to do is of course file CR and RS's, which of course drives up prices to consumers who really don't care for the CR or RS. I'm talking about informed decisions by the consumer, not trying to pull the wool over their eyes, as of course I offer the CR and RS options, but they ask me if they actually need them, my honest answer has been no, and I believe that surveyors who would add services not needed to bring up billing are being dishonest, and association who cast judgement on surveyors saving consumers money, and actually giving the public good reason to use our services doing something all the firms in Southern California have been doing for the 33 years I have worked in the industry.
Interestingly, I approached this as a potential LS exam question. The only reference I could find refering to a "pont on a line" in the LS Act B&P Code 8762 and presuming the few found monuments had been or were properly previously recorded as part of a ROS, subsection b-4. states; " The establishment of one or more points on lines not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or Record of Survey, the position of which are not ascertainable from an inspection of the subdivision map, official map, or Record of Survey." This would seem to me be applicable to you're setback pol. I COULD BE WRONG!
Although I feel your pain regarding stake chasers.
I hardly ever "thing".. But you raise a very good question, as I understand it... I think very often our customers are forced to get survey's that are at best superfluous…. to at best… keep the legislative industry happy… living in a different part of the world I still think that our customers often pay for things that are to simply avoid law suits.
I have worked for many companies the the greater Los Angeles area, and it is a fact that since the law was passed in 1985 hundreds of survey crews have been going out every day and setting points which is " The establishment of one or more points on lines not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or Record of Survey, the position of which are not ascertainable from an inspection of the subdivision map, official map, or Record of Survey." yet the records do not reflect that. I honestly believe I can go into any viable surveying office, including the state and county and find many instances of what can be literaly interpeted as failure to compy. Is this what you do not agree with, then let me go to your office, and I will find instances of contracts for setting constuction poinst which could only be established in relation to the Right of Way or Property line. If you are without sin, then cast the first stone.

This discussion is not about the tecnicality of the law. We know you could fill a library with laws and cases filled with interpation. This discussion is about the fact of particular surveyors acting under color of authority to restrict competation but using seclective interpations of the law in a discrimating fashion, that is using the law specifically against the surveyor not in their association.

The discussion is three fold, one is it right to limit competation by selective interpetation, which is evident by the lack of CR and RS while sending out surveyors every working day for 25 years, staking improvements tied to PL or R/w. Two by selective enfourcement, that is filing complaints against non memebers and three to use an association designed to promote land surveying, to limit the informed choices of the consumer. That is to say, the consumer does not care about a property corner, they only need some points to build a structure on their property. Remember we are licensed by the Dept. of Consummer affairs with the intent to keep the cost of professional surveying as affordable as possible to the consumer.

If you want to get personal about the issue, then please start your own post, and If you thing you are somehow a "better" surveyor then the rest of us, you can start a post and that, and I for one will respond in an attempt to show you that one cannot be a good surveyor without humility.
I actually appreciate your interest, it does, to me, come across biased, as you don't seem interested discussing the specific issue which I posted.

Your statements indicate you do not accept the premise of the discussion, and you therefore are determined to sidetrack the discussion, my guess is you know exactly what I mean and perhaps implicated by my conclusions.

By answering a question you use attemept to divert the discussion to something other then actually coming to a conclusion. It is obvious to all we are talking about a group of surveyors who may try to use complaints to limit competition, it doesn't matter what group, if any, only is this a valid tactic to get more business, by denying your competitor the same access to market share. Just as local transportation boards restrict contracts to businesses without local offices.
To your No. 2, yes that is what I mean.
No. 3, yes the underlying purpose of govenment regulation is for the betterment of the public good, which primarily on its face value would be cost of service. You may have a different opinion to which you are entitled, feel free to express it. I understand the idea that the public good is served by RS and CR recordings, and you may question that a RS or CR is required in a particular case, but for the sake of this arguement, let us say the law does not specifically include it, because we don't see your firm filing CR for 20' & 80's or R/W and limitis of constructions stakes, not to mention curb stakes, set at a specified offset of the property line (R/W). Unless I am mistaken and you have been filing those, please give the CR No. so I can verifiy.

Concerning your last assertion that you don't need to explain what an interet forum is and this may be the wrong venue..., you are assuming that this formum is for those other then professional land surveyors and others who respect the profession. You claim humility, yet you display a lack of respect for my post. If you wish to respect this surveyors post, then please, lets not detract from a critical aspect of professional



Let me try to reframe the arguement, perhaps you can then assert your rebuttal properly.
For this excersise I will assume I am haveing a discussion with an honest and ethical person trained in surveying.

1. If groups of surveyors are trying to limit competitation by filing complaints is this ethical?

If so, why?

2. If groups of surveyors are filing complaints only on those outside their groups is this ethical?



if so why?

3. Does a surveyor have an obligation to present a potencial customer with affordable obtions, which in the opinion of the surveyor will not affect the quality of the finished product, nor violate the law.

For the sake of clarity please disclose if you are a member of an association which promotes filing complaints against licensed surveyors.


So please try to stay on point, and I will respond.

concerning your item 1 response you assert you do not understand the issue, then go on to explain it to me. Circular arguements formed as questions do not help.
please fellas, lets keep it clean.


while i'm here-my humble opinion. yes this is a professional land surveyors forum. that means either licensed or students of land surveying, civil engineering or geospatial sciences.
i think it is horrible to report a fellow professional solely for purposes of financial gain during any sort of economy. furthermore, if you find that a fellow professional is making mistakes such a those in question, maybe in spirit of 'fair' competition, you might like to give them a heads up...otherwise your "competition" is a baseball team playing against a football team at the diamond-we all need to be playing the same game if it is going to be a game. we're all supposed to know the rules. yet that may seem a little magnanimous (whether that is appropriate or not above is something you guys will have to sort out, all the same a very action packed word ) to assume your competition is just oblivious (as opposed to say a pitcher who places a tack in the ball, in order to make it curve). knowingly breaking rules for financial gain in any sort of association is just disrespectful and if the public knew it, it would be dealt with most likely in court. lets just assume that 'professional' means 'follows the rules of the game for the sake of the game and the public' then all of those following the rules must know the rules and if you break those rules, you are usually thrown out of the game. games most often have coaches and advisors, so players rarely have to run and report errors made by other players on the opposite team-if it is going to be reported to the referee, the coach should do it. a good coach who is true to the game will yell at the other coach before taking to the association-good coaches watch each other from across the field and the player's heads. sportscasters report to the public, but rarely with bias, although it is fun to talk about favorites on the air. and yes they are hired by the association.
soooo..do i think it is better for the fans of baseball to know that there happens to have been a game where a football team showed up to play?
i think that type of mistake will make its way to the papers without my help.
what about the tacky pitcher?
that is what makes a good association. it is filled with players and coaches who play by the rules-plus a hand full of referees who do their job well. anybody who has the time to report anything regarding a colleague enemy or otherwise must not have enough work to do.
Condensing your verbrage, basically you believe it's OK for your association to file complaints as long as they can find some reason, even if that very reason is violated by their own memebers , such as setting points on vesting lines on a subdivision or construction project, and even if the action results in restricting competetation or dirving up prices to privates owners, for the very act those memberrs of your association offer to large comercial and public entities without interpeting the law in such a manner as to warrant a complaint against it's members, such as yourself.

Well if the shoe....

Do you actively participate in such actions?
If so would you agree this is acting under color of authority?

Concerning such a complaint I received a threatening letter from your association, demanding some action from me, as if issuing a writ o mandamus. I do not recoginize that you have any authority over me.


By the way my kid could fix your website for a small fee.
Condensing your verbrage, basically you do believe it's OK for your association to file complaints against licensed surveyors as long as they can find some reason, even if that or similar acts ares violated by their own members , such as setting points on vesting lines on a subdivision or construction project. You agree that those complatints results in restricting competetation and/or dirving up prices to privates owners and the general public. You also concede that this or similar type of surveys you and other memberrs of your association offer to large comercial and public entities without interpeting the law in such a manner as to warrant a complaint against it's members, such as yourself.

Well if the shoe....

Do you actively participate in such actions?
If so would you agree this is acting under color of authority?

Concerning such a complaint I received a threatening letter from your association, demanding action from me, under threat of offical complaint, as if issuing a writ of mandamus. I do not recoginize that you have any authority over me.

If you dissagree with any of these statements, please be specific, general demurs or failure to specifically deny allegations will be acknowleged as agreement as to the substance of the allegation, against you and your associales (collusion to restirct competition)


By the way my kid could fix your website for a small fee.
My best conclusion of this discussion is that your opinion of your logical ablilities far exceed the reality. Who would jump to such a conclusion of a complaint to a board, when the post specifically mentioned a letter from your associates to myself demanding a response. Perhaps you know of such a complaint? For what?
Anyway, since this is an informal venue, I don't understand why you get your panties all bunched up over "the King English", which, knowing as I do Englishment from the Bells, I can tell you have butchered the English language, sort of the tea kettle calling...
Back on track though, as I said your general denials or demurrs will only serve to allow me to assume that you acknowledge complicity in the acts of your associates, if this is not the case, the please explain why, if the allegations is true how it does not apply or how you justify doing such a thing.

Really, this is just about a little common sense,
but I guess Benjarmin Franklin was right when he noted: Common sense is very uncommon.

As to you resorting to name calling (crazy and fool), when a person can not longer hold up an arguement, this is what they resort to.

If the shoe fits....

Thanks for the website cratique, I wonder what you would have said if it looked like yours?

Looks like this debate has been settled. Thank you for the information Mr. Dent.

Actually,

The issue is not settled, but I will update you when it is.

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