Land Surveyor Community Forum

Hi Everyone, For those of you have never done this,you do not know what you are missing.  I think every surveyor needs to do this ,if it is just for the fun or experience of doing it,a lot of old Deeds, even today have yesterday bearings,magnetic bearings or Declinations where once used not to long ago, a surveyor should be on guard, when taking Bearing from plats or old Deeds,  Astronomic azimuth were and are used in some cases for Geodetic surveys on today's Monuments.A direction determined from Sun or Star observations results in an astronomic azimuth which usually differs slightly from geodetic azimuth. Simply stated,  astronomic azimuth is base on the direction of the vertical and axis of rotation of the Earth. Geodetic azimuth is based on a mathematical approximation of the Earth shape The term Azimuth is define as a clockwise angle from astronomic North.This method  at one time was widely use to help improve the line of Directions that were being recorded on modern surveys. Modern surveyor no longer used magnetic bearings that had Declinations applied for their surveys, so before GPS this was the only way to determine North.and be more accurate than a Compass of yesterday surveys. In fact they are real accurate to say a lease.To do this you had to plan it all out. Lat. and Long had to be known and you had to have a real accurate time piece. The HP 41 CX has one of the most accurate clocks that is made in a calculator even today. I may have used it more than any other to do this. That includes the HP 48 GX and TDS Recon.But this is something to experience , if you have never done it. Looking at the Sun move (the Sun does not move) puts you in prospective with how fast we are moving thru space and more how fast we are turning. But this all had to be planed. If you had a filter you could take a Sun Shot, If not a Star Shot, but this means it had to be done at night.( Many Thanks to Ron Dry,Polaris shots Day Time) This was even more work to prepare for it, Both has to be done at certain times of the day or night.Your angle on the horizon can be to less and also to great, There are no midday Shots and the same for looking at Polaris , Also Clouds could stop you from taking one, also the Seasons ,in Winter you have less time in the day more at night . You have to take 6 sightings as fast as you can do them, This may seem hard but you get good at doing it.  But your work for property had to include it,to be completed.  Cell Towers when they came in all had to have this done for their alignment to North. GPS.replaced this method, but it is still required in some surveying. Like i mention you can find geodetic monuments that includes astronomic azimuth in their Data, When you look at them notice the different in this Azimuth and the Geodetic Azimuth.  So i will give you 2 links to download a Sokkia Celestrial Observation Hand Book on Ephemeris, this download is for educational purposes only from the three Authors who are all Professors,  this book has programs for HP 41CX,HP 42s and the HP 48GX,

Later in replys i will feature the 41cx and  48gx programs  with instructions and go over the notes. This was also one of the last books i used, You had to have this book to do it Plus knowing how to set your clock that you were using, then you would need a stopwatch with it or the calculators clocks, I have a large stack of these books, one for every year. So see how the Hour Angle Method HAM, was done.

Below i have attached two txt. files ,one is the 48 program and the other is the instructions to it.

"Thanks to Ron Dry for his input on Polaris During the Day"

http://landsurveyorsunited.com/forum/topics/polaris-shots-during-daylight?commentId=544331%3AComment%3A346888

http://www.rollanet.org/~eksi/Handbook.htm

http://fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx/2008-Sokkia-Celestial-Observation-Handbook-Ephemeris-AndrésRuiz-jul-2013-g24731

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  •  Hi everyone here are two down loadable copies of Az011 program or AzSun. these can be use manually .

  •  Hi everyone 

    Just wanted to add some of the information I gave Joseph. To make sure everyone did not miss it.

    But this book data is 2008 so you will need 2017 data only, everything else is good.

    http://www.rollanet.org/~eksi/Handbook.htm

    The one's  below has books and N O Time and alot more. look at all of it

    Plus Greenwich mt

    http://fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx/2008-Sokkia-Celestial-Observation-Handb...

    http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/celnavtable.php

    http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/what.html

    http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/frontpage.html

    https://greenwichmeantime.com

    https://greenwichmeantime.com

    Here are some more links on UT1

    https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/atomic-standar...

    https://www.timeanddate.com/time/aboututc.html

    https://www.iers.org/IERS/EN/Science/EarthRotation/UT1LOD.html

    https://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/dutc.html

    https://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/epochtime.html

    https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/46823/what-is-the-diffe...

    Having the most correct Time and you getting it right is for a Sun Shot is very important.

    Polaris the motion is not so fast as the Sun

    Elgin, Knowles and Senne, Inc.Sokkia Handbook
  •  Hi Every one, I was helping Joseph Uy and found some of my files that I did not show in this discussion. 

    So I thought to include them here also.

  • Ho fellows!

    Do we have a program for the grid azimuth computation? Thank you.

  • Hi Everyone, Final got time to get back to this. Like i said I would show a copy of AZSUN, This program  is similar to AZ011, In fact the instructions in the Hand Book, will work for it also. This copy is much easier to read. This is my personal version. If you do not have a HP 41 CX you can download a Emulator of it,it works just like the real calculator. This is alphanumeric RPN  programming.

    Program AZSUN or AZ011 for the HP 41 CX

    01. LBL AZSUN                                   
    02. FIX 5................35. RCL 08.....68 times * ............101. X to Y
    03. 1.01.................36. ST+12.......69    SIN...............102. RCL 01
    04. STO 00............37.-0.5............70. times *............103. SIN
    05. LAT  ?..............38.RCL 04.......71.RCL 05.............104. RCL 14
    06. XEQ  01...........39. RCL 03.......72.plus +...............105.SIN
    07. LONG  ?..........40.minus -.........73.GTO 04............106.times *
    08. XEQ  01...........41.STO 15.........74.LBL 03.............107. RCL 01
    09. GHA  0 ?..........42.X > Y ?.........75.RCL 05............108.COS
    10. XEQ  01...........43.GTO 02.........76. LBL 04............109.RCL14
    11. GHA  24 ?........44.360...............77.RCL 06............110.COS
    12. XEQ  01...........45.plus +...........78.RCL 05.............111. times *
    13. DECL  0 ?........46.LBL 02..........79.minus -.............112.RCL 13
    14. XEQ  01...........47.360...............80.24.....................113.COS
    15. DECL  24 ?......48.plus +............81.divide /..............114.times *
    16. XEQ  01...........49.24.................82.RCL 12..............115.plus +
    17. SEMI DIA ?......50.divide /...........83.times *..............116.ASIN
    18. XEQ  01...........51.RCL 12..........84.plus +................117.COS
    19. UT=SW 0 ?......52.times *...........85.STO 14..............118.RCL 07
    20. XEQ  01...........53.RCL 03...........86.RCL 13..............119.X to Y
    21. LBL A..............54.plus +.............87.SIN...................120.divide /
    22. 10.012.............55.RCL 02............88.CHS..................121.minus -
    23. STO 00............56.minus -............89.RCL 01..............122.RCL 11
    24. BS ?................57.STO 13............90.COS..................123.RCL 10
    25. XEQ  01...........58.0.501................91.RCL 14..............124.minus -
    26. FS  ?...............59.RCL 15.............92.TAN..................125.minus -
    27. XEQ  01...........60.ABS.................93.times *...............126.360
    28. SW  ?..............61.X > Y ?.............94.RCL 01..............127.MOD
    29. LBL 01.............62.GTO 03.............95.SIN....................128.HMS
    30. PROMPT..........63.0.000039458......96.RCL 13..............129.AZ=
    31. HR...................64.RCL 05..............97.COS..................130.ARCL  X
    32. STO IND  00.....65.times *...............98.times *...............131.AVIEW
    33. ISG  00............66.RCL 12...............99.minus -...............132.END
    34. RTN.................67.7.5.....................100.R to P           

  •  HI Bernie, This is Absolutely Awesome and your notes also. Yes most of my threads do contain a HP in it somewhere, or maybe that is how big a role Hewlett Packard once play in the survey industry. Even today it's HP35s still plays a big role in surveying, The HP 50 G is still the most advanced graphic calculator used in the world in surveying and now the HP Prime is moving up into the ranks as the next, with it's touch screen and Home and CAS screens . Also it's new HP PPL calculator language,  But i will continue to show my Roots as well as to say, look this is the future of math. But this is the Story of math no matter how elementary it is, to what we use today.No it is not the whole story, but it is part of it.

     And Thank you for your contribution in it.

  •  Thanks Survenator, for this Fav, and for all the good things you do here. your the one that is Awesome.

    • 1201389123?profile=original?width=721Hi Billy;

      This may have already been emphasized in the previous threads regarding Celestial Observations; but I wanted to also remind all of us about the 'extreme' importance of recording accurate time when taking these observations. The HP 41CX and CV Time Modules were a critical tool for these observations. Not so much for star shots because of the slower motion of Polaris; but precise Universal Time (UT1 or Zulu) was extremely critical for accurate Solar Observations.  

      The  HP Time Module (or any time keeping device) would naturally lose its precision after a few days and would have to be re-synchronized prior to taking our sun shots. I've attached a photo of a Radio Shack Time/Weather receiver we used for tuning in to WWV. This radio provided a 24/7 access to  the US Bureau of Standards voice recording of the US Naval Observatory Master Clock time on the minute.

      The USNO Master Clock time, however, broadcast 'UTC' (Universal Time Coordinated) which was a uniform time based upon atomic clocks. That coordinated time, then, had to be adjusted to UT1 (Zulu)  which was based upon the actual 'rotation of the earth'. That adjustment would be as much as 0.7 seconds plus or minus. When synchronizing your time piece (ideally your HP41CX) to the USNO Master Clock you also had to listen carefully to the 'beats' in the background. There would be 15 beats or ticks and some of them were 'double ticks' (up to as many as 7 double ticks) which would represent a plus or minus 1 tenth second correction depending whether the double ticks fell in the first 7 (plus adjustment) or last 7 ticks (minus adjustment).

      You would set your  HP41 to the UTC broadcast clock and then make the plus or minus tenth of a second correction using the HP calculator's 'T+X' function ('X' being plus or minus tenth sec. correction) 

      Dr. David R. Knowles, who with Drs. Richard Elgin and Joe Senne produced the Lietz/Sokkia Ephemeris Handbooks as well as the venerable ASTRO-ROM HP Celestial Observation program module, also contributed a very helpful and authoritative article on Accurate Time keeping in a Dec.1985 P.O.B. I used it here for fact checking my rusty memory on the specifics of UT vs UTC time keeping.  Oh and that photo above is of that handy-dandy Radio Shack Time Kube.

      bjm

       

      •  Hi  Bernie, This is Fantastic, and so are you, and thanks for this. No i did not go into great details, because it is in the Ephemeris Hand Book,  Yes i remember the first times of doing mine, Then doing it all again just to check it, nervous about did i do it correct. You know the CX has a time adjustment program that you can  initialize, as you set these correct times, this program checks the calculators clock time.with the correct time and store these values, so if this is done at regular intervals, the calculator has all this Data , and knows its own errors , then when you like you can start the program to correct the time at intervals, this lets you run more correct time between settings, But you gave a great description , I used to have that article ,with a giant stack of POB. But like i said Bernie, you are #1. I also had a ASTRO-ROM, But that was stole, It was in a calculator. I also had card reader to load AZ009 into the 41 CX , it is over 900 lines long, and i do have a Hard copy of it,in storage, there is where a lot of my old Survey books,Survey Law Books and Programs are stored for safety . If i go there i will  get it.The one in the hand book is AZ011, it is a  short version of AZ009.  AZ009 stores time and  then lets you enter angles after mark, AZ011 is manual input. But Typing all that code in you wish you had something on a card to be read.  Bernie thanks for being such a Great Surveyor and sharing all of this with us.

  • Hi Everyone again, I talk earlier about doing this  on the HP48 GX . I showed you how it was done on the

    TDS Recon, But here is where that program came from, it is just as simple, So i copy my manual, which you can tell is real old, But see how it was done on a HP 48 GX running  TDS Soft Ware.

    Below i will attach a PDF file, with 5 pages, This will come in handy if you do not have this book.

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